Elon's Reusable Rockets faked? Am I really the crazy one?


#13

Oh dear… this may be a little difficult for you, but I’ll try…

  1. Spacex uses a cooler grade of LOX, which is more dense than the LOX used by other launch vehicles. This increased density is around 0.75% to 1% greater than the density of “standard” LOX, meaning that there’s just that little bit more LOX than other rockets use. HOWEVER… it is more volatile, and has some “odd” physical properties (go look it all up - that’s one of the advantages of the internet). It’s partly the reason their rocket exploded on the launchpad last September (along with the configuration of the Helium pressure system). ULA (United Launch Alliance), ESA, the Chinese and the Russians will not use this supercooled LOX. Firstly, their engines and systems are not designed to handle the stuff, and they also consider it to be too “volatile”, so never bothered to design systems to accommodate it. Also, where governments fund programmes, there’s not a big incentive for economic resusability - they just use the taxpayers money and expend the entire vehicle.

  2. The dynamics of power-to-weight and acceleration (via Newtonian Laws), as well as the Delta-v (go look that up too), plus this fractional “surplus” in LOX, allows Spacex to get the first stage to about 6000kmh, separate it, then come back down to earth. It’s extremely fine tolerances and the timing of ignitions, thrust volumes and EC’s (engine cutoff) are critical…

BUT… get it right, and it all comes together.

As I suggested, spend your next vacation in Florida and time it to coincide with a Spacex launch. If you see any “fake” stuff going on, I’d be pleased to hear about it.


#14

Oh right…
SpaceX uses “special” LOX which gives it a 1% advantage.
Awesome.
Now back to the blunt ended rocket flying at supersonic speed… how is THAT possible.

Let’s try a bit of logic again shall we
IF the first stage has enough fuel remaining to reverse direction and fly back (supersonic) for a soft landing would it not be more economical to deliver a much higher payload rather than fooling around with the rebounding rocket charade?

I am perfectly au fait with Newton’s laws of motion and Kinetic energy.
Tsiolkovsky rocket equation is not something I use daily but I can summarise it as; Start with a shitload of fuel - finish with none!
Ewon has found a way around that law.
I’m not surprised.


#15

I don’t suppose you are just slightly biased towards Lord Elon dude?

FEBRUARY 19, 2017 10:16 A.M.
Fairestcape wrote:
Tesla is not only disrupting the world of conventional transportation, it is disrupting the manner in which a progressive business should be analysed. The real value of TSLA is not measured in quarterly statements and $$$ - this number (whatever it is at any point) is simply a barometer of the old-style thinking that most traditional analysts are trapped in. Firstly, Tesla is not about “selling cars”, and while core business principles are extremely important (regardless of how disruptive or visionary), the real value of the company is what it is doing to influence the future. And this is about sustainable energy. The USA oil industry is taking a hiding right now (https://srsroccoreport.com/the-blood-bath-continues-in-the-u-s-major-oil-industry) and the medium to long term future of this stubbornly static industry does not look great.

You would do well to think more laterally on what values companies today.

Meh!


#16


#17


#18

#19

It is trivial to prove these rockets are fake.

Firstly, there is Musk’s refusal to patent their technology - as this technology is allegedly unprecedented, it would be worth billions, and as Musk is bankrolled by the American government, which has the largest military in history, protecting these patents against any infringement would be easy.

Do you really think either Musk or the government would allow this technology to be let go for nothing?

Really?

Of course, the true reason Musk does not patent the tech is because it does not exist, and cannot function as claimed - patents would reveal this in the starkest fashion, thus patents must be done away with…

Pathetic.

Secondly, his rockets defy all Newton’s laws of motion: drawing a free body diagram of the silly thing during it’s exoatmospheric ‘dolphin flip’ will show this clearly, as it is provably incapable of creating force pairings with its environment in any way, and thus incapable of altering its trajectory.

Btw, free body diagrams do not include either forces exerted by the body, like the exhaust or thrusters of a rocket, or forces internal to the body, like pressure in the engine combustion chamber, lest you have forgotten high school physics…

The relationship of center of mass to center of pressure is also hugely problematic for Musk’s ridiculous fireworks, but the free body diagram alone kicks them into the gutter so I’ll give him a pass on that one.


#20

Well thank the Lord (not you Elon).
Someone gets it.
Back in the day when I was at college my studies included thermionic valve and CRT theory.
(Yes… I am that old!)

My mathematics is a bit rusty now but when I can still recall the calculation of electron ballistics in a vacuum.
Electrons can bounce off the anode.
They can be deflected by a magnetic or electric field which is how a CRT works.

Electrons do not “loop the loop”

Neither do Ewon’s wockets!


#21

I want to know how they relight the wocket engine to slow for landing when it has a supersonic wind blowing up its clacker!


#22

They don’t, because it is impossible.

Aerodynamic heating from atmospheric friction is an exponential function, and above Mach 6.5 all metals quickly melt.

Besides, Musk’s rockets are not even correctly streamlined for going forwards at supersonic velocities, let alone backwards, and are incapable of claimed performance.

This will help you understand why:

And we haven’t got to the problems of centre of mass being behind centre of pressure yet - that’s a killer.

As is the idea of having nine engines, which is just stupid as it increases weight and complexity whilst drastically reducing Thermodynamic efficiency…

All this has been known since 1957, so the whole history of space exploration is a lie.

Musk is just the latest liar to get his nose in the trough.


#23

The hypersonic grid fins (often referred to as lattice fins by real aerospace engineers) are a joke too.

This link provides basic info but is good enough:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0261.shtml

Note that lattice fins work well at subsonic velocities, do not work at all at transonic velocities, work poorly at low supersonic velocities, and only reach peak efficiency again at high supersonic velocities.

This is due to the need for correct shockwave formation within the lattice stucture.

Thus, the silly $pace$ex doohickeys would be uncontrollable through much of their flight regime.

But their problems do not end there…

Aerodynamic heating at high supersonic velocities will quickly cause the leading edges of the fins to ablate, thus resulting in shockwave deformation within the lattice structure and consequent loss of control.

So the last thing you’d do is make your hypersonic fail fins out of aluminium, which melts at 600C, then paint the damn things too!

Yet that’s what $pace$ex claimed in their first launch…

Check out the mad fake video:

Note that the fail-fins actually catch fire at one point - lol!

It is painfully obvious that at no time was any aerospace engineer consulted during the imagineering of Musk’s ridiculous fireworks - it was just a bunch of sci-fi geeks and special effects twonks making it all up as they went along…

They probably thought having the fins burst into flames would look cool, rather than being damning evidence of fakery.

Idiots.

Edit to include more technical info:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Meeting%20Proceedings/RTO-MP-AVT-135/MP-AVT-135-35.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJm-32ienaAhWMBsAKHWr8BQU4ChAWMAJ6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw1FNUAgfYXIqkLHO4Y8_lfl


#24

Great stuff but maybe ease up on the " whole history of space exploration is a lie" I like my GPS, Satellite internet and many other benefits of the Space Age?
Be careful you don’t get lumped in with the Flat Earth Brigade :slight_smile:


#26

Nah, I’m more than happy to discuss satellites.
I can see them up in the sky every night.
I can download satellite images.
My broadband is via geosynchronous satellite.
I have no difficulty in believing that centrifugal force can balance gravitational attraction.

I thank you for your assisting in debunking the webounding wockets but you haven’t convinced me that all space accomplishments are faked.


#29

Then how do you explain this thing?

From what I can make out, it was travelling south east, and as a plane leaving a contrail flies past on the left at the start of the video, we have a handy reference for speed and altitude…

I cannot see it being higher than 40,000 feet and 500mph Max.

It is also clearly not gaining in altitude throughout, either.

Here are some more videos of it:

Note that not one video contains a sonic boom, even though it is allegedly reaching speeds of up to 3,000mph.

Here is a video of Concorde making a Sonic boom, whilst travelling at a clearly higher altitude for comparison:

Now, the fake $pace$ex doohickey was allegedly carrying ten iridium satellites…

Yet it was going nowhere near space…

But I don’t see iridium complaining that their satellites were not delivered.

In fact they’ve paid $536 million for eight launches, so they’re perfectly happy with whatever the hell it is they got in return…

Money laundering, anyone?

Conspiracy to defraud perhaps?

Ever get the feeling you’ve been had?


#30

I honestly have no idea what that Iridium launch Bizzaro was all about.
Perhaps they were trying out some special effects.
I don’t class Iridium alongside the respectable satellite operators,
Same as I don’t count SpaceX among the respectable rocket companies.

BUT, you’ll have to try really hard to convince me that satellites don’t exist.
Skies are very clear here in Oz and I only need to watch the night sky for a short while before I see one.
My GPS works anywhere on the planet.

But enough of that…this thread is about rebounding rockets.

Gee, I wonder why they never warn Florida residents that a filthy great big used rocket with many tons of explosive fuel is headed their way at supersonic speed.
And it’s on AUTOPILOT!
I mean…what could possibly go wron


#34

Here’s yet another fundamental principle of aerodynamics that $pace$ex violate:

https://www.nar.org/nar-products/rocket-stability/

And that’s whilst the rocket is enveloped by a fluid medium: remove that fluid medium and any deviation in force vector will result in a phenomenon called Inertia Coupling…

Which I won’t even bother linking to - suffice to say it’s disastrous.

It’s genuinely embarrassing that anyone with the slightest education believes this nonsense.


#35

Well at least when Ewon’s wocket is headed towards the residents of Florida it is (allegedly) flying arse first with those big heavy motors leading the way.
Problem I see is that old fashioned rocket, aircraft, and bomb designers make the front of their devices with pointed noses.

I’d love to see Ewon’s wocket in a wind tunnel!

Interesting discussion over here… https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughMuskSpam/comments/8oouby/elons_reusable_rockets_faked_am_i_really_the/


#36

My point is that as Musk’s fireworks must fly both forwards AND backwards, the COM/COP balance can never be correctly tuned.

Look at the Falcon Heavy for example - the weight of 27 engines and associated gimbal motors, fuel pumps etc. were allegedly balanced by one Tesla roadster in the nosecone.

It is nonsensical, as your discussion with brainwashed sci-fi idiots on Reddit shows.

Btw, grid fins do work at subsonic velocities, though they are mainly used for packaging reasons on large ordinance such as the MOAB as they can fold flat to the casing, facilitating release as it is simply pushed out the back of a transport aircraft.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0261.shtml

However, grid fins do not work at all in the transonic regime, which is problematic for Musk’s claims to say the least.

Anyway, here is a video showing how to create free body diagrams:

Ask the idiots on Reddit to make a free body diagram of a rocket in a vacuum, surrounded by zero working mass, and show you where the force pairings between the rocket and its environment occur…

Get them to do something a real engineer would for once in their sad sack sci-fi fanboy lives.


#37

Want to see how easy it is to poke huge holes in Musk’s rocketry nonsense?

Check this:

https://www.quora.com/On-the-SpaceX-Falcon-9-how-many-engines-gimbal-for-directional-control-just-the-center-one-On-the-Heavy-will-it-be-all-three-center-engines

Notice how in the diagram it suggests the silly fake Merlin engine has a regenerative nozzle/combustion chamber cooling system?

Well, scroll down to the photos of the useless fraudulent object and note that there is zero evidence of any kind of regenerative cooling system at all…

None whatsoever.

Problem is, a regenerative cooling system is quite a big deal on long range rockets - without one you’ll cook your engine within seconds.

But hey, Elon don’t need em - because MENTAL I guess?

Also note that 27 engines would mean 54 heavy duty fuel pumps and 108 engine gimbal motors+actuator arms…

All at the exact opposite end of the rocket from where the centre of mass should be…

But yeah - all this stuff is real, despite its violent assault on every single law of physics and principle of aerodynamics ever.

Why?

Cuz Elon sez so?

He is MENTAL and so is anyone who believes his embarrassing Pseudoscientific claptrap.


#38

It is not just IDIOTS on Reddit.
It is also full time paid Musk shills.
Even the fudging moderators admit to being on the payroll.